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| yourdroid |
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Registered Member #36
Joined: Thu Dec 01 2005, 06:12PMPosts: 214 |
Goose i understand what you are saying, but i have to ask this. You bring up kever leaving as a divorce between her and the community. However, a community is not an individual and should not have to divorce from anyone. A community, whether it is a small online or something large such as a city or country, should be receptive to anyone who does not break any just laws. (I realize that there could be a whole other philosophical argument over what "Just" entails, but for the purposes of this argument it is basically along the lines of not being blatantly bias, unnecessary, or something to which a vast majority has a moral objection) So if a person does not break those laws and is driven out of the community because of the ignorance, stupidity, and selfishness of parts of the community (whether the exit is voluntary because of strain or actually physical) is that community not wrong? If so then is it really better that someone who broke no laws is forced out to "keep the peace" and the community be left to continue as is rather than attempt to work out the obvious flaws despite the hard times that will ensue whether the flaws are successfully fixed or not? Personally, i would rather loose 100 regulars who would want things their way regardless of others, and be part of a community that at least attempts to do the right thing than part of an obviously flawed community that makes no attempts to fix the flaws because they are too scared of popping the safe little bubble they believe they have around their community. not sure if this all came out right because i haven't slept well the last few days because of work/class/rl problems and i'm a little tired. |
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| Ninca |
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Registered Member #561
Joined: Sun Feb 04 2007, 07:45AMPosts: 1109 |
This is a long reply, you have thus been warned. Alright Goose, you asked for no one to reply to your post, however I cannot honor your request. Also, Alex asked that no one asserts themselves for the sake of argument, but I feel something needs to be said in response to your post. I have a bone to pick with what numerous people have said in numerous threads, so I'm gonna sum it all up in this one post. Until now, I have kept completely quiet on the manner (including last year's thread). First, let's take a step back in time to the infamous "Fate of Kever" thread. Alex said this: Alcohol Powered wrote ... Kever is someone that is frequently accused of hacking and yet no one has offered conclusive proof that she hacks. Set that aside and consider the fact that the sheer number of people that complain about her allegedly hacking creates a lot of stress among FTC regulars, FT members on FTC, and especially FTC admins. The Fate of Kever thread was created by Alex on January 30th, 2007. Now, I started playing CS in Late November 06, and stumbled onto the Fish Tank Classic server around Early December 06. Kever was playing at the time, and the accusations had always been flying around. It has now been over 13 months since Alex made that thread. All of the "Kever-Haters," as you said, have had ample time, again, as you said, to produce a demo. This group includes, but is not limited to, Trueagle and John Mayer as two of her staunchest opponents (that are public). There's been numerous attempts, the last one being Night's, to catch her hacking. No one has. Why, you might ask? Simple answer, Kever does NOT hack. Now, you say that there's another group, the "Kever-Lovers." Now, you might think I'm one, which is partially true, however it is not completely true. There was a time when I was a "Kever-Hater." I was also attempting to catch her hacking, which didn't happen. After seeing new faces come into the Tank, such as Steel, which had immense amounts of skill as well, I realized that Kever didn't hack. Bubble Goose wrote ... Many people want to believe that Kever is an integral part of the community. Kever actually is an integral part of the community. Think back to the days when you first started playing Goose, how did you improve your skill? When I first started playing and wasn't sure, I looked at who had the most kills and spectated them and watched how they played. At first, I was amazed at how the hell it was possible to do the things they did (Players include Horsecock and Kever for the most part). Then, once I learned the basic of the game and how to play, I started doing as she did and as horsecock did, and it improved my game immensely. Nowadays, since I've gotten to be a decent player, I can only get better by watching what Kever and Steel do. Sure there's other players that kick a lot of ass too (Evilpig, Daft, etc) but the elite group (Kever and Steel, mainly) is the group to watch to improve your game. The newer players that venture into our server can also spectate them, to improve their game and learn how to play. So I'd say yes, Kever is quite an integral part of our community. Bubble Goose wrote ... When Pracket and Bob were under the impression that she was banned for hacking, she could have easily made a post saying “I asked to be banned, gg everyone, catch ya later”. I know some people have said that she is intimidated by the forums, but if she requested to be perma-banned, and she didn’t want to be involved in the drama anymore, at least have the courtesy to toss a 1-liner on the way out the door. It wasn't just Pracket and Bob that were under the impression that Kever was banned for hacking. Everyone was under the impression that someone had falsely banned Kever for hacking. I'd say that Kever isn't intimidated by the forums, she's intimidated by us. She tries so hard to please everyone, which is why she asked Alex to ban her. While talking to her on Steam, I was asking what her plans were to come back. Here's a portion of the convo: Kever: yeah but people would flame me for coming back Ninca: either way, you're going to get flamed Kever: then i'm not doing it! Ninca: if you don't come back people are gonna flame you for "pussying out" Kever: okay this is not fair See? She wants to do what's best. She isn't trying to ruin the server, she's looking at the community's interests as well as her own. She likes to play on the server, and has a lot of friends here. Also, Kever is quite the private person. Notice how she doesn't talk much in game, or post on the forums much? She has an opinion, obviously, as well all do, however she's afraid of the reactions of others and is too intimidated by us to post her opinion. She's viewed hundreds of threads, and visited the site hundreds of times. She's just too intimidated to post her opinions. Also, I believe she didn't post a one liner after being perma banned in an attempt to avoid this type of situation. A thread similar to "The Fate of Kever." Alex said it best, Alcohol Powered wrote ... Kever chose a private channel of communication on Saturday evening when she asked me to ban her. I imagine she will choose a similar means of communication should she decide to request an unban. I highly doubt that a seemingly private person such as herself wants the type of exposure that these various threads are bringing to her. She does not like the public exposure, and did not want these threads to be created, which shows her care for the community. Goose, you also asked a question in your reply. Bubble Goose wrote ... Clearly she realizes that her ‘being here’ has adverse affects on the members in the community, so why keep pulling her back in? Yes, I agree that she acknowledges that when she is here there are some adverse effects (although as forementioned, there are positive effects as well). Sure, let me contradict myself for a second and say that the adverse effects do outweigh the positive effects. However, the adverse effects aren't her fault. Pracket, Bob, TCS, and Trueagle all leaving are not her fault. Trueagle chose an immature way to attempt to prove a point that he thought Kever was a hacker. He got an aimbot and god knows what other hacks, and used them in FTC to say that obvious hacks are allowed, and then resigned from FT. TCS was on True's side, and had banned Kever, then relinquished his membership to FT and his admin, because he didn't get his way. These two were stubborn - they didn't get what they want so they cried about it. Don't get me wrong, I loved TCS and I like True as well (for the most part), but they went looking for a solution the wrong way. This time around, 13 months later, Pracket and Bob quit. Now, I don't know the exact reasoning as to why either of them quit, but they both mentioned Kever. I won't quote Bob as to saying anything, as he wasn't specific and I haven't kept in touch with him as of late. However, I will quote Pracket. Pracket wrote ... Perma banning kever just hastend the process. Pracket stated the permaban of Kever was the final straw in his decision to resign. She wasn't the only reason, but was the final one. Him resigning isn't Kever's fault as well, he acted based on rumors and made a decision on his own accord. Sure, if Kever had said something he wouldn't have resigned now, but it would've happened in the future regardless. Aside from the four players I mentioned, there's also John Mayer. John's one of Kever's staunchest opponents. He is taking a leave from CS to work on his home, and do projects around the house instead of "unwinding" from work by playing CS. John mentions Kever in his thread without specifically saying her name. John Mayer wrote ... I am also choosing now because my frustration-meter seems to be at an all-time high when it comes to dealing with hackers and what seems to be allowed on FTC. I won't go any further into this age-old debate; no, I don't have any "hard" evidence (who does) of people doing this or that. I just know what I've seen and have played this game long enough (7 years) to know the difference. He claims that Kever is a hacker without any, as he says, "hard evidence." After 13 months with no demo to show any hacks, why does he still think that she hacks? Simple, he's got the same fault that both True and TCS share. They're all stubborn. They are not open minded to the fact that maybe, just maybe, some players have rediculous skill/reflexes. This past weekend I was on FTC (while Kever was banned) and 3 stripe went 27-0 or something rediculous. Steel has also had stints where he has had rediculous ratios. It's not just Kever. So, that leads to a question, why does everyone think that Kever hacks, when Steel and 3Stripe are just as good, if not better at times? It's the nature of the person she is. A combination of the skill she had when joining FTC first, plus how private she is and how she has gotten rediculously good during her period on FTC, leads several to think she hacks, but not Steel or 3Stripe. Also, another factor is that she isn't IN FT. Now, back to your reply Goose. You said, Bubble Goose wrote ... Ample time has passed for the ‘Kever-lovers’ to attempt to sway the minds of those who are convinced that she hacks (or at least stand up for her in-game.) Time isn't a factor. Players like John, True and TCS are all stubborn. You cannot change what they believe, and they make constant attacks. There's no way to constantly defend them, and its not possible to sway these players. Let me hop around to another thread now, Alex's. He states, Alcohol Powered wrote ... Others may not be able to read the writing on the wall, but if you leave FTC then another person will take your place as 'the most vile hacker ever' and suffer the same fate. This is completely true. When another player with skill similar to Kever's rolls around, one person will think that the new individual hacks, and there will be the same bandwagon that hops on. Now, the new person might not want to deal with it and either leave the server, or they may be vocal and combat it themselves on the forums. It does not change the fact that there will always be amazing players coming around to the server, that go in and out and amaze us with their skill. Let's hop back to John's thread once again. John Mayer wrote ... Where I come from we have a word for such unnatural performance, and it ain't "respectable." Whoa there John, unnatural performance? You've been around for 7 years of Counter Strike. You've seen the like of Steel, 3Stripe, Kever, and HorseCock play on the server, not to mention alot of other skilled players. You're only claiming though that Kever is the hacker, no one else. She's the only one that isn't respectable? Hell, Kever is more respectable than anyone else that plays in the server. When does she ever complain, insult someone, or do something else that isn't respectable? She keeps her mouth shut, unless she is joking with someone, and plays the game. To me, that determines the respectable player. Most people that think Kever hack, claim that its either a Radar (hard to detect, no one knew Matador used a radar hack until he was VAC banned and got a new steam account), or she uses a wall hack. However, Kever gets knifed nearly every session by either myself, Bob, Pracket, Bandito, Wolf, Fox Lord, or any other player that likes to knife. How does a radar/wall hacker get knifed? You might say that she toggles, but in the same rounds that she gets knifed, her play style is EXACTLY the same. She also doesn't pause and lag for a minute to turn the "hacks" on/off. Therefore, I think I can prove she does not hack, and is a legitimate player. In conclusion, I'd like to quote Alex one last time, as he says it best himself. Alcohol Powered wrote ... Kever: Kati, the argument has been made that you could be the most divisive individual in FTC's history, and I accept that as a valid opinion. I also see you as the potential saving grace of FTC. Others may take your meekness as cowardice; however, you have an opportunity to prove them wrong, and assert your dignity as a regular on FTC. Outspoken or not, assertiveness on your part is what others appear to be demanding from you--give it to them, prove that your presence is legitimate as well as something you demand THEM to acknowledge, and you may just be the most cohesive FTC player ever. Others may not be able to read the writing on the wall, but if you leave FTC then another person will take your place as 'the most vile hacker ever' and suffer the same fate. Stand up for yourself before 2009 rolls around. It could be Kever, Bowser, or Wulfram—it makes no difference. The mob will try to run you out of town until you show them that you're not afraid. If you think playing on FTC is worth fighting for then YOU need to fight for it! A bunch of guys thinking they know what is best for you is solving nothing. I should know because I've been a part of that crowd before. [ Edited Wed Mar 05 2008, 07:28AM ] Edited Thu Mar 06 2008, 04:59PM |
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| yourdroid |
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Registered Member #36
Joined: Thu Dec 01 2005, 06:12PM Posts: 214 |
Mr  wrote ...:) wrote ... Alright Goose, you asked for no one to reply to your post, however I cannot honor your request. Also, Alex asked that no one asserts themselves for the sake of argument Then don't. Thanks! Actually goose didn't ask that no one reply to the post, he said he was not posting it simply because he wanted to start a discussion or argument, but only to give people something to think about. There is a difference. There is also something called discussion, which is different from argument. Arguments are where sides "argue" (obviously) their sides trying to persuade others. Discussion is the exchange of ideas so that they can be "discussed" so that people can form their opinions from taking in information from as many sides as possible. My post was not intended to argue or start an argument. It was presenting another side. So I believe i honored alex's request. Thanks for the concern though. |
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| Omni |
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terrible one
Registered Member #33
Joined: Tue Nov 29 2005, 11:50PMPosts: 1292 |
:) wrote ... Most people that think Kever hack, claim that its either a Radar (hard to detect, no one knew Matador used a radar hack until he was VAC banned and got a new steam account), or she uses a wall hack.... That statement totally disproves your whole argument. We (as a community could not prove he hacked, how can you say that b/c we don't have a definitive demo does NOT prove that she (or matador) didn't hack. :) wrote ... However, Kever gets knifed nearly every session by either myself, Bob, Pracket, Bandito, Wolf, Fox Lord, or any other player that likes to knife. How does a radar/wall hacker get knifed? You might say that she toggles, but in the same rounds that she gets knifed, her play style is EXACTLY the same. She also doesn't pause and lag for a minute to turn the "hacks" on/off. Therefore, I think I can prove she does not hack, and is a legitimate player. Excuse me but hacks do NOT make you impervious to knifes matador knife deaths: 2005: N/A 2006: 21 (that was with his old ID which he was hacking on) Please DO NOT ASSUME hacks make you perfect!! And with that i think we are done here. |
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