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| NoSkill |
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Sir
Registered Member #457
Joined: Tue Oct 10 2006, 01:13PMPosts: 2628 |
Hey guys so I read Kremit's update and was thinking about the possibilities and want to open up a discussion thread about it. I've placed it here because I wouldn't expect non-FT members to... donate to the community. Ok here's some questions: 1.) I'm sure everyone has noticed the lag on the website and slow load times. What specifically is the cause of this? (website size) and more particularly what are our possible solutions? ($$$) 2.) Is the increasingly noticeable lag spikes on FTC also related to this increase in traffic or something different? (How much $$$ to fix that also?) 3.) How much $$$ could be raised using the ad method mentioned in the update and to what detriment? (popups? or banner ads? banner ads I don't mind so much... I like shooting ghosts and running from king kong) 4.) How much money theoretically would we need to raise via donation method? How would that differ if we used a combination of ads + donations? 5.) What other options do we have and what other "projects" would the community like to see undertaken? Ok, I know we're mostly all poor college students or even poorer high school students but you know when you combine resources amazing things can happen. These are the things I would like to see, by all means tell me if I'm way off base and it's impossible, but if it is possible. Please throw a price tag on it and we'll take it from there. 1.) Gosu website. Runs like butter and draws crazy amount of traffic due to it's awesomeness. 2.) FTC running like greased hog's fat and eliminate the lag spikes. 3.) Do the other servers need anything? 4.) (optional) A Team Fortress 2 server. This is a selfish one, but I will be bringing Fish Tank into the TF2 realm the day it's released and would love to have a home base from which to launch our offensive. (inter-clan TF2 murderball tournaments anyone?) How much are we looking at? |
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| kd. |
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♥ (✿◠‿◠) ♥
Registered Member #75
Joined: Sat Dec 17 2005, 08:51PMPosts: 3128 |
While we're on the topic, FTS could use a few more slots. Gotten a lot more popular then we used to be. I don't know how much the site stuff is, wait till Krem and Alex reply, they'll fill us in 
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| A Drunk |
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Registered Member #437
Joined: Sat Sep 23 2006, 02:18AMPosts: 1224 |
Should so zombies, but that is up to wild and jigg if they even want more. Zombies is full. | ||
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| Wildcard23 |
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Registered Member #514
Joined: Wed Dec 20 2006, 06:33AMPosts: 1067 |
Zombie server is being moved to 20 slots 66 tic. Jigg is working with the company right now but I need to copy all the files to my computer at home just in case fragn tells us they need to move us to a new server with a new IP. Jigg is looking into the issue right now. And I believe that Krem is in the process of looking for a new web provider to eliminate the problems that we are seeing. I'm sure he'll get back to us with the results and will offer it up for everyone to help him out in regards to donations. I have no doubt that those that can donate will send Krem some money. 
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| emerican |
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Registered Member #164
Joined: Tue Mar 07 2006, 12:07PMPosts: 3146 |
im very happy with the success not only of zombie, but with surf and the website. i think we finally have 3 servers we can depend on for constant fun (we still just need 5 or 6 more fun maps to constantly play on BOTH surf and zombie.) the site has grown unbelieveably in the past year and a half, and im glad to be involved in such a community. i am also pleased the way zombie has stayed so constantly full. it took me 10 minutes to wait to get a spot today, and ive never done that on surf or office. more slots is a MUST. and im glad this time it wont go to waste. this is still a work in progress, but the server i talked about a while back may still be on the way. the money issue is still there, along with the parent factor. but it wont be so bad. it will be a 12 slot (at the most, maybe even 10 to begin with) scoutznives server. some options we are looking into are gungame scoutznives, rpg scoutznives, wc3 scoutznives, or just plain old scoutznives. If you have any ideas for this, throw me a message and ill take it into consideration. But at this point, it is still only a possibility, and not a sure thing. |
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| .neXTt |
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Registered Member #507
Joined: Thu Dec 14 2006, 01:42PMPosts: 539 |
WOOOOOOOOT. zombie is amazing. everything is getting pumped up to the max! wooot. actually why scoutzknives emer. jeeez. it gets boring.... i'd enjoy a normal map rotation server for scrims and stuff thats' objective based and team work based. cuz the only map i'm familiar with is like office. and it sucks that i am familiar with one map -.- | ||
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| alcosatz |
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FT Classic Op
Registered Member #39
Joined: Fri Dec 02 2005, 10:30PMPosts: 1545 |
NoSkill: Kremit can fill us in on any plans to improve the web site. I don't typically have complaints about speed when it comes to our web site. An ugly error about database availability gets me a little angry but speed hasn't been an issue for me. Your offer to help with the financial details is admirable but I'm not so sure either of the concerns you bring up (web site speed and FT Classic lag) are easily remedied by throwing money at the problem. NoSkill wrote ... Ok here's some questions: ... 2.) Is the increasingly noticeable lag spikes on FTC also related to this increase in traffic or something different? (How much $$$ to fix that also?) Here are some topics to consider about lag and FT Classic: 1. Slot Count When FT Classic went from 20 slots to 24 slots, the additional demands on the underlying equipment were expected. We have more perceivable traffic with 24 slots but I would agree with an unscientific statement that we get more complaints about lag. 2. Client Rates / Non-Server Network Screwiness How many of these complaints may actually be attributed to crappy server performance is debatable. Client rate settings exist for a reason. They typically determine how consistent communication is between a client and a server, but they also influence how your client handles (as well as updates) the server in the event of both network sketchiness as well as temporary reduction in server frame rate. I can't count the number of times people complain about lag while I'm playing FTC, someone seconds the notion of server lag, and the case is closed as far as everyone is concerned. I pay attention to my net_graph 2 or net_graph 3 feedback while I'm playing and many times I don't experience lag when others are complaining. There are many circumstances involved such as whether I'm spec or alive, whether the lag was server or network related (in the case of network related lag then it may only affect some players), was it when people are actually playing (stats calculation as well as the cash/health script fire at the end and beginning of rounds on FTC), etc. So... there really isn't an easy answer to why FT Classic lags now and then. Sometimes it's the server and sometimes it's isolated to one or a few particular clients. The status quo appears to be: when all else fails just blame the server. Again, sometimes this is correct and sometimes this is pure ignorance. What's worse is that many people appear to go along with it being victims of server-side lag. This works the same for other issues as well, such as hacking, and many people don't care whether they have a legitimate... many people just want to be victims and they don't base their complaints of any kind of research. It's a problem and the last thing anyone wants is to consider that they are in any way responsible for that problem. Assigning problems to other people is much easier than considering personal responsibility for those problems. Sorry for droning on about this, but I get tired of everyone assuming that the reason for their lag can't possibly be corrected by anything other than "fixing" the server. 3. The Costs Of Server-side Plugins With the above in mind, there are obviously methods isolated to the server to reduce lag. The instant performance killer to server operation are plugins. Specifically, Mani is a hog. The problem is that Mani is so effing useful that most servers use it. Ditto for EventScripts -- it's a cost of utility at the expense of performance; however, how poorly this affects server performance is almost entirely dependent on how well a particular ES is designed. Generally speaking, the ES scripts used on FTC are lightweight (they don't really hook into the source engine for functions such as damage analysis), but I'm certain that some sluggishness at the end of the round is related to our cash/health script. I recall when most plugins were broken last summer after a Server-side Steam update. It was frustrating not having Mani for obvious reasons, but we played around with a (mostly) working alternative called BAT, or Basic Admin Tool. Since there were far fewer hooks into the Source engine, BAT eliminated many of the demands that Mani placed on the server. Sure, many of the for granted admin features, both manual and automatic, were greatly missed but FTC definitely performed in a more positively consistent manner. 4. Server Tickrate Tickrate can be reduced to counter poor performance, but this does not typically counter lag "spikes." Reducing the tickrate would mean the server performs in a more consistent manner over very small time samples, but spends more time "guessing" (interpolating) the results of client updates. I don't believe this would solve the majority of lag complaints and think FTC performs well at 66 tick most of the time. 5. Changing GSP's Honestly this is a nightmare. It's even worse because redirection is not effective based on the fact that most clients are, by default, not going to allow servers to execute client commands. An astute reader can find my discussion about this elsewhere and I'm not even going to link to other threads concerning it. If you really want to know, research the "cl_restrict_server_commands" CVAR. Changing hosting companies, and sometimes even changing hosting options WITHIN a GSP, can be very difficult. No hosting company can guarantee that a Source Dedicated server instance they rent to you will perform flawlessly no matter what plugins you throw at it or how unreliable the network connectivity between thousands of potential clients may be. FT Classic has migrated a few times now and, while the results are generally favorable, regulars WILL be lost when their bookmarks show up as dead after a migration. Hell, even if you leave the old server up and change the hostname to "FTC MOVED TO x.x.x.x:27015" some people will ignore it. Also, it's a crapshoot with GSP's as far as long term implications of hosting go. When FT Classic was with ReconGamer it was high-fives and a six-pack every night because the performance and latency for most regulars was a drastic improvement. Performance started to slide a few months later, support tickets were ignored for several weeks, and we found ourselves looking for a new host because our connection rates were dropping through the floor. Maybe things would have gotten better with RG and maybe they wouldn't; however, changing GSP's is an involved process and very little of the burden is financial. Sorry for letting this post get too long but you didn't ask a very easy question. Here is a quick summary of my post.1. Reducing slot count would help, but it can be assumed that we would reflexively reduce traffic as well. 2. Individual client rates can counter some lag. There's a reason why you lag on one server and not on another -- client rates, routes between different servers, etc. all impact the performance relationship between a server and a client. 3. It's an option to remove/replace plugins with less demanding components. Reduce server plugins and lag will definitely be reduced, but the loss of utility is grave. 4. Tickrate reduction may help some, but tickrate is not often attributed to sharp spikes in lag. 5. Changing GSP's is a potentially disaster event and offers no guarantee of success. The perceived problems with lag on FT Classic are not negative enough to consider this option. NoSkill wrote ... Ok, I know we're mostly all poor college students or even poorer high school students but you know when you combine resources amazing things can happen. These are the things I would like to see, by all means tell me if I'm way off base and it's impossible, but if it is possible. Please throw a price tag on it and we'll take it from there. Cost isn't the only issue as I've attempt to explain above. I was paying $60 for 20 slots on ReconGamer and it when to hell last summer. I'm paying $48/month for 24 slots from counter-strike.com and the current server performs better IMO than our RG rental. NoSkill wrote ... 2.) FTC running like greased hog's fat and eliminate the lag spikes. ... |
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| A Drunk |
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Registered Member #437
Joined: Sat Sep 23 2006, 02:18AM Posts: 1224 |
yea, wild can u give admins that are like lvl 1 maybe commands so they can do random votes. We are playing the same maps. Tower and panic all throughout the day. It gets old. If the admins can have a random vote, more people will play differnt maps. | ||
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| emerican |
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Registered Member #164
Joined: Tue Mar 07 2006, 12:07PM Posts: 3146 |
agreed drunk. its fun the first couple of times but after that it gets boring. thats why we need people on the lookout for zombie maps so we can test them. post them on wilds thread (which i stickied). thats where i poster fubar towers and its a hit so far. | ||
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| Wildcard23 |
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Registered Member #514
Joined: Wed Dec 20 2006, 06:33AM Posts: 1067 |
Great post Alex. Excellent job breaking everything down and explaining it to everyone. And dammit Drunk. Read the other post on the zombie section. I will add admin random vote ability when I get back to my place on Sunday afternoon. I'm on vacation right now for a few days to see friends and family back in Jersey.
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